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Post by Assbong420 ~The Weeder~ on Jun 11, 2013 12:12:21 GMT
she isn't making points. shes throwing mud and making 25 posts a minute and destroying any continuity in this thread. if sabotage was her mission, she's done it well. if reasoned debate is her goal, well.... i'm not saying THE CHURCH (mind you, this beef is with the pope and Catholicism, not judaism) didn't have a heavy hand in the way europe moved during those centuries. i'm curious what you can pull from those philosophers that can provide evidence to show the church prevented electricity or the motor engine from getting invented. if the argument is that scientific progress was stifled in that time period, and you're saying Kant and Voltaire write about this, i'm interested to see it. and no niki, i'm not saying they didn't write about it. i'm not saying that the church didn't stifle invention. i'm not saying i don't believe such a thing happened either. i'm saying that after a fallen roman empire, from 500ce onward, it seems like europe put itself back together and most of the pieces of culture that you subliminally enjoy today. read umberto eco, he has plenty books on the stuff furthering the point: kant and voltaire didn't live in the middle ages in fact, the passage from medieval times to the modern age is characterized exactly by an opening in the sciences which started by a revolution against the tight grip of religion around science (the renaissance) that was the time where protestantism was born too, when even religious people told catholics to billy-goat off. that was also the time when principles such as the separation between church and state, or church and science etc, was conceived and it wasn't a revolution from religion, again, it was against it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2013 12:14:20 GMT
also israel is illegitimate and should be brought down the hamas are religious fanatics profiting over a legitimate resistance the only way to solve that problem is through reforging a strong state that is absolutely separated from religion hahahahahahahaha Okay, so let's get rid of Israel and "give it back to the Palestinians" (mind you, there was no such thing as any group of people who identified as Palestinian people before the 1960's, but rather as Trans Jordanians who got disowned by their own government, but you knew that). But seriously, play along for a minute. Where should the Jews go where they will be free to be themselves as a religious people? You do believe in freedom of religion, yes?
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Post by Assbong420 ~The Weeder~ on Jun 11, 2013 12:14:24 GMT
yes there was medieval philosophy, art and craft
but it was all religious
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Post by Assbong420 ~The Weeder~ on Jun 11, 2013 12:16:04 GMT
also israel is illegitimate and should be brought down the hamas are religious fanatics profiting over a legitimate resistance the only way to solve that problem is through reforging a strong state that is absolutely separated from religion hahahahahahahaha Okay, so let's get rid of Israel and "give it back to the Palestinians" (mind you, there was no such thing as any group of people who identified as Palestinian people before the 1960's, but rather as Trans Jordanians who got disowned by their own government, but you knew that). But seriously, play along for a minute. Where should the Jews go where they will be free to be themselves as a religious people? You do believe in freedom of religion, yes? if there are jews who can't live freely in a non-religious state then I can't honestly give a rat's shit about what happens to them
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2013 12:35:25 GMT
read umberto eco, he has plenty books on the stuff furthering the point: kant and voltaire didn't live in the middle ages in fact, the passage from medieval times to the modern age is characterized exactly by an opening in the sciences which started by a revolution against the tight grip of religion around science (the renaissance) that was the time where protestantism was born too, when even religious people told catholics to billy-goat off. that was also the time when principles such as the separation between church and state, or church and science etc, was conceived and it wasn't a revolution from religion, again, it was against it. If it came off that I was saying Kant and Voltaire were contemporaries of that period, that was not my intention. I just wanted to know what they said that refers to the church stifling innovation. As for the Renaissance, there is much debate as to when it officially began. There were also Renaissances of sorts in the Medieval period as well, cultural, aesthetic, scientific, etc. There were evolutions in many fields and you can lay markers anywhere anywhere, from the 1300s to the about the 1600's as a starting point of the revolution. As for the birth of protestantism, it was bound to happen. A religious autonomy won't satisfy the masses forever and there will be factions that break off. As "One" as Judaism likes to say it is, there are numerous factions within it. Even Davids kingdom around the 950's BCE became fractured and people in the northern half of Israel started falling into idol worship. Granted the ancient kingdom was more of a confederacy than a federal union, autonomy didn't last. Whatever though, I don't care to get too wrapped up in this conversation because the exact semantics of the history isn't important. It's where we are today. The best part is though, in my eyes, is that this stuff was predicted centuries ago by the Kabbalists.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2013 12:41:27 GMT
hahahahahahahaha Okay, so let's get rid of Israel and "give it back to the Palestinians" (mind you, there was no such thing as any group of people who identified as Palestinian people before the 1960's, but rather as Trans Jordanians who got disowned by their own government, but you knew that). But seriously, play along for a minute. Where should the Jews go where they will be free to be themselves as a religious people? You do believe in freedom of religion, yes? if there are jews who can't live freely in a non-religious state then I can't honestly give a rat's shit about what happens to them Israel is a mostly secular state. Yes, it was founded as a place where Jews could be safe being Jews and not face pogroms, crusades, and inquisitions like they had for the previous 2000 years. The founders of zionism were not religion. David Ben Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel hated religion. The only thing Jewish about Israel is that it recognizes Jewish holidays as days off. I should pretend like I'm offended about that last part of your comment, but I understand it. I don't know much about Portuguese culture and history, but I wouldn't say I couldn't give a rat's shit about what happens to them if suddenly the world was like, "hey, the portuguese are the cause of all our problems". They should have the ability to retain their cultural identity, whether or not it's the backbone for all of western civilization.
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Post by Assbong420 ~The Weeder~ on Jun 11, 2013 12:46:22 GMT
the point is not "when" the renaissance began in terms of the exact yer,but that it was historically a transition from medieval thinking to the modern age, the latter equated to the birth of free thinking and questioning
I'm not going into whether religions are wrong or right because that's a void argument. but the fact is knowledge couldn't, and can't, advance while a particular set of texts are deemed right a priori. it's only from the point when thinkers were allowed to move past scripture and past religious concepts of the world that science boomed. that is not to say that those scientists weren't religious themselves; that is to say they had the liberty to challenge the notion that God was behind natural phenomena.
same with politics: only when a priori ideals of social/natural order (religion and aristocracy) are fundamentally questioned in public can you have a fully democratic society. questioning is the essence of the modern revolution and the basis of modern thinking, and it's something that wouldn't happen in the middle ages because all knowledge and power was held in a tight grip by the church under religious principle.
I don't believe any religion allows itself to be questioned on a fundamental level because every religion draws from a priori assumptions of reality itself. so it can't be the basis of a political or scientific structure, because it's antithetical.
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Post by N4-PR on Jun 11, 2013 12:57:29 GMT
I understand what you're going for Jewy
But jewish people just came in and practically forced people off their land
It's like what every other country did in the past but in a modern setting, which you don't see happening anymore
If this happened 200 years ago, I wouldn't have cared. But since it happened recently enough and since the area has been increasingly unstable because of it, it's hard to support them.
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Post by Assbong420 ~The Weeder~ on Jun 11, 2013 12:57:45 GMT
if there are jews who can't live freely in a non-religious state then I can't honestly give a rat's shit about what happens to them Israel is a mostly secular state. Yes, it was founded as a place where Jews could be safe being Jews and not face pogroms, crusades, and inquisitions like they had for the previous 2000 years. The founders of zionism were not religion. David Ben Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel hated religion. The only thing Jewish about Israel is that it recognizes Jewish holidays as days off. I should pretend like I'm offended about that last part of your comment, but I understand it. I don't know much about Portuguese culture and history, but I wouldn't say I couldn't give a rat's shit about what happens to them if suddenly the world was like, "hey, the portuguese are the cause of all our problems". They should have the ability to retain their cultural identity, whether or not it's the backbone for all of western civilization. I never said "the jews are the cause of all the problems" because a) I don't believe the jews are a cohesive group of people and b) there's no real b) actually but I can rephrase it "if there are some jews who can't..." and I wouldn't defend any cultural identity whose underlying principles would threaten the well-being of others. I would never stick to a "portuguese state" if that would threaten the well-being of spanish people, I would much rather have a "non-identity" state and have people who identify themselves as portuguese or as spanish live under democratically agreed-upon laws. again, I don't think "portuguese" is a cohesive group of people as much as I don't think the same about jews. I think there are political agendas, and some political agendas further a particular interpretation of identity and culture in order to sustain a particular nation-state. I won't go more into this because then I'd get into socialist critique which I'm sure people care even less about. but the point is, insofar as there is a "jewish state", whatever that means, there will exist adversarial tension necessarily. yes, even though that's not what's at stake here, the same does apply to muslim states, I don't recognize the legitimacy of islamic theocracies either.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2013 13:19:54 GMT
I understand what you're going for Jewy But jewish people just came in and practically forced people off their land It's like what every other country did in the past but in a modern setting, which you don't see happening anymore If this happened 200 years ago, I wouldn't have cared. But since it happened recently enough and since the area has been increasingly unstable because of it, it's hard to support them. The Jews didn't push people off their land. Jews were resettling in Israel from at least the 1880's if not earlier. Heck, Israel before then was arid and swampy and the land was mostly unused. The settlers bought that crappy land for like 100x the amount you could buy fertile farm land in Iowa at the same time. The problem was, they bought the land from people and they took the money and didn't care to leave, which started to cause strife. The early zionists played by the rules they were told by the UN and all that. The region just flipped their lid when it all became real. What's happened since is a confusing cats cradle of events and no one is without some blame.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2013 13:41:50 GMT
fundamentally grue, i dont disagree with you. the only thing is, i think that being the only western culture around since antiquity, who has lived among most of the nations of the world, has been exiled twice from its homeland, expelled from other lands, murdered endlessly, yet has people that have contributed greatly to the worlds of politics, science, math, and most other fields should be allowed to reside in what was their original homeland. if ideals like that are uncool, that's unfortunate.
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t'tool
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Post by t'tool on Jun 11, 2013 14:18:02 GMT
was there any kind of logic in that run on sentence?
"the culture... should be allowed to reside in what was their original homeland"
well that is its own argument that depends on a whole range of ethics and rules and is certainly not an "ideal" that is automatically true or good
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2013 15:36:16 GMT
was there any kind of logic in that run on sentence? "the culture... should be allowed to reside in what was their original homeland" well that is its own argument that depends on a whole range of ethics and rules and is certainly not an "ideal" that is automatically true or good well the whole notion of zionism comes from the fact that Jews aren't safe anywhere in the world. When he hold our tradition, we are accused of not assimilating. When we assimilate, we are accused of tainting culture. What are we supposed to do? We have a homeland, Israel. We are the people of the book. We were kicked out by the Roman Empire in the first century CE and have wandered the earth mourning for our homeland. On top of that, for all that we have contributed to kingdoms over time, they eventually turn on us and force us out. If the world think it's so humanitarian and for equal rights, then why not allow us the right to live in the land that we can prove claims to? For example, you can visit the tomb where Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Sarah, Rivka, and Leah are buried in Hevron, about 20 miles from Jerusalem. The transaction of Abraham buying this land is documented in Genesis. There is documentation of David buying the land that is the holy temple mount where the Muslims Dome of the Rock sits today and was the site of Abraham sacrificing Isaac.
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Post by Gorilla Tits on Jun 11, 2013 15:58:38 GMT
I see
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Post by 410757864530 DEAD COPS on Jun 11, 2013 16:15:23 GMT
funny how yall say THE EXACT SAME THING I DID
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